有关身世的传言 Tales of the Lineage

老瓦

试翻一首自己去年底写的，欢迎批评改错：）


****************************************
有关身世的传言
Tales of the Lineage


The Sun is the past, the Earth is the present,
The Moon is the future.
—— Paul Auster《Moon Palace》



1
是唤醒众神的同一束光
自蛮悍的天眼而来
它弯曲，膨胀
穿透山火、水和地鬼
在记忆之树破土的青果园
一道贴近叶脉的斑斓
催熟我们最初的无知

然后有顽石漫长的分娩
从昏暗洞穴内
俩俩对视擦燃的语言
让聋哑的花绽开
让日子与风找到名字

The light to upheave all gods
was rumbling from within the barbaric eye of sky,
it then twisted in, puffed up,
and gushed through wild fire, water and ghost of earth,
into a garden budding with the tree of memory.
As a glimmer was dwelling on the vein of leaves,
it hastened for us the first yield of ignorance.

Thereafter came the eternal laboring of rocks,
and inside the shady cave,
the words kindled by swaps of eye contact
would allow deaf flowers to bloom
as well make names for time and wind.


2
埃及，河流自南而北
述说一尊黑土中的竖琴
浴女们手捧泥沙
在岩画上播种金色的麦田

法老头戴太阳之子的
盛大名义
以奴隶贫瘠的肋骨
搭建比城堡更炫耀的积木
当狮身剥离诱惑
还原千年不语的人面
那些被招引的原始的幽灵
就完成一次风干的转身

From south to north, an Egyptian river streamed muttered
like a harp mired in black soil,
and nearby bathing women, mud in their hands,
were planting golden crops onto rock paintings.

In the grand name of Son of the Sun,
Pharaoh ordered thinning ribs of his slaves,
be built into mounds even more glorious than castles.
And when the body of lion escaped away from riddles,
recovering its human face muted for millenniums,
the primal soul summoned by his master corpse
was there to complete an incarnation at the tip of a wind.


3
交织着运河与契形文字的
美索不达米亚平原
牧草丰腴，如她赤裸的小腹
先知，在这里孕育
圣诗，在此刻盛入瓶子

还有竖直的泥墙，公正的
汉谟拉比石柱
以及高高悬空的宫殿上
月神的后裔扬起金箭
每颗星辰的凶吉
从此听命于食指的预言

Canals and V-shaped letters interwoven
ran across the great plain of Mesopotamia,
where grass was so nourishing, as if inside her womb,
and prophets expectant in pregnancy
just like Psalms poured into a jar.

There were clay walls so upright,
the same as the Hammurabi stele in its justice.
And from the palace hanging high above the sky,
son of the moon goddess was up with golden arrow,
for each star awaiting its fortune good or ill,
hereafter to obey to his trigger finger.


4
丛林中舞蹈的跛脚智者
与毕生旅行的象群
露宿同一个赤热傍晚，饮唱恒河
过往两岸的宿命
滞留水面一层浮影
无边的欲望垂死纠缠在水底

殉难的诗篇所超度的
雪山沙漠下的寸草和凡心
文明的枷锁为他们开光
谁嚼烂因果的根
则修得极乐的传人

A lame wiseman danced out of woods,
joining the migrating elephant herd,
to camp out under the same sizzling sundown, sipping from the river.
The destined lives passing by the riverbanks
had each left a layer of floating shadow,
where infinite desire went desperately entangled to the bottom.

The trifling grass and soul growing by snowy mountain and barren desert
were released from purgatory by martyred poems.
Civilized shackles would enlighten them,
same as whoever chewed down the root of worldly consequences,
was to be bestowed the rightful successor to the paradise.


5
桑田漂移，冰峰摇撼
青藏屋脊一支呜咽的沱沱河
尾随我祖上远嫁到江南
她抽丝，踏布，秉穗，烧秸
小半亩风水肥美的百衲衣
是安放她香魂的沃野

每每有朔风迎面
或一场浇透肝胆的黄梅雨
棺木上被刺青的鸾凤
眼前总划过一刀瓦蓝的月光
阴冷如口吐菊花的
一骰盅烈酒
洒向我始终神往
依然遥遥未知的原乡

Continents drifting, icebergs banging and cracking,
all for a crying river to depart the roof of Tibetan plateau,
and trail my ancestral mom married off to the south of the Yangtze River.
She farmed silk, waved fabric, garnered crops, burned stalks,
and in a small quarter of lush paddy field
there harbored a graveyard forever comforting her balmy soul.

Whenever came a raging chilly wind from the north,
or a monsoon rain worth another round of heartbreaking,
a blade of azure moonshine would flash across eyes of
the phoenix tattooed on her coffin lid.
It felt like a bitter chrysanthemum blossoming from
within a mug of fiery spirits,
and then spraying over my belonged fatherland
that still lies faraway past all stretches of my imagination.


.

云天

原来是读了Paul Auster《Moon Palace》而生发的诗意。
不然，我以为是读了历史呢。

第一节很诗意。

一道贴近叶脉的斑斓
催熟我们最初的无知
。。。。
让聋哑的花绽开
让日子与风找到名字

很美的诗行。


诗很长，欧慢慢丢小石子。
若丢错，反弹给欧。

hastened for us
好象 hasten 是及物动词？

西方不败

小云，“hasten” can be both 及物动词 and 不及物动词。

老瓦诗人的诗不错。谢谢你的英译，让我更容易理解你的原作。

云天

与小西老师同感。  英译“让我更容易理解老瓦诗人的原作”。

难得同小西抬杠。

不错，“hasten” can be both 及物动词 and 不及物动词。
但本着简约的原则，"for" 是多余的。
请看狗来的例子：

has•ten

Pronunciation: (hā'sun), [key]
—v.i.
to move or act with haste; proceed with haste; hurry: to hasten to a place.

—v.t.
to cause to hasten; accelerate: to hasten someone from a room; to hasten the arrival of a happier time.

西方不败

小云是对的。在那一行里，hasten应该是作为及物动词的。for应该省去。

西方不败

不好意思，我们有杠可抬吗？你没说“hasten” 在这一句里应该作为及物动词，我只说“hasten” can be both 及物动词 and 不及物动词。我没说错。不过我同意你的建议，具体在这一句里，“hasten” 用作及物动词比较好。

与小西老师同感。  英译“让我更容易理解老瓦诗人的原作”。

难得同小西抬杠。

不错，“hasten” can be both 及物动词 and 不及物动词。
但本着简约的原则，"for" 是多余的。
请看狗来的例子：

has• ...
云天 发表于 2009-9-16 10:29 PM

云天

6# 西方不败


不好意思。没有没有， 没杠可抬， 所见略同。
欧难得学一句口头语，还用错了。

是我没有表达清楚。 原想说，hasten 在那一句不应用做 v.i.
给小西老师道歉。

晚安。


另，老瓦的英译相当好，it's pretty hard to pick tiny bones from the egg.   :)

老瓦

去年我确是读了奥斯特那本小说，但历史书也一直是枕边读物，尽管读来读去都是那几本“儿童版”；））

感谢二位的多多意见，值得推敲的地方太多了，我自己很多时候只能囫囵吞枣，所以旁人的理解和建议比我自己的更准确。

在用hasten之前，我翻译的是it yielded for us the first run of ignorance.  但考虑缺少一点“催”的意思，后来就用hasten替代了，并且保留了先前的句式，却没有考虑到你们说的及物或者不及物。让我再想想。

云天

"The Sun is the past, the Earth is the present, the Moon is the future. "
翻过“月宫”，这好象是月宫餐厅中  fortune cookie  里的签。

看来还真同历史有关。
欧读历史书，全是陪读。已读到八年级的 Social Studies.


催熟我们最初的无知
it hastened for us the first yield of ignorance.

老瓦诗译的宾语其实是 the first yield.   欧这两天因为Swayze，写错读错，收回小石子。
小西，欧引句不全。道歉。   你说得没错，hasten 在那个句中可做 vt.  

简单些，可否写成:
it hastened the first yield of our ignorance.

云天

第二节这两行译得漂亮。

那些被招引的原始的幽灵
就完成一次风干的转身

the primal soul summoned by his master corpse
was there to complete an incarnation at the tip of a wind.

以奴隶贫瘠的肋骨
Pharaoh ordered thinning ribs of his slaves,

我好象觉得 thinning 是疏松，稀稀落落的意思。 such as "thinning eyebrows", "thinning hair".
老瓦为何不用 meager, scrawny , skinny 等词，有何考量？
小西, what's your take on this？

From south to north, an Egyptian river streamed muttered
streamed muttered   是否只取其一？   
murmured  好象也可以吧.

=====================
第三节：
牧草丰腴，如她赤裸的小腹
where grass was so nourishing, as if inside her womb,

丰腴:  nourishing .     flourishing  好象也可以。

恒河 ---  the Ganges

=========================

第四节：

4.
谁嚼烂因果的根
则修得极乐的传人

same as whoever chewed down the root of worldly consequences,
was to be bestowed the rightful successor to the paradise.

因果---- karma ?

=====================

第三/第四节好看。不一一列举。
而第五节写得则至为精彩。

阴冷如口吐菊花的
一骰盅烈酒
洒向我始终神往
依然遥遥未知的原乡

It felt like a bitter chrysanthemum blossoming from
within a mug of fiery spirits,
and then spraying over my belonged fatherland
that still lies faraway past all stretches of my imagination

belonged fatherland
神往的故乡？
拿不准。


没刺可挑了。 both the poem and translation are quite impressive.  

月满西楼

好诗!!!!!!

老瓦

多谢楼上两位！ 快手云把我的身世都改的差不多了：）

最先是streamed，后改为muttered, 但忘了删前面的，你眼力厉害：） 因果的对等词汇是karma, 我在翻译另一首的标题就是这个。但此处想表达更详细一点，故用worldly consequences，是有点堵。

belonged fatherland，此处我不想用一个从句，the fatherland to which I belonged to，所以简化了一下并且砍掉了介词to, 我也吃不准，好像是语法错误。

稍后把你指出的错误一并纠正，再谢！

见解

原创+原译,　相当不错！还未及细读.　有感于老瓦的谦诚．


看大家发言,　一点小小CＯＲＮＥＲ：

＂belonged fatherland，此处我不想用一个从句，the fatherland to which I belonged to，所以简化了一下并且砍掉了介词to, 我也吃不准，好像是语法错误。＂

从句中用两个　ｔｏ，肯定一个多余的; 前置后置, 并无一定.

但全＂砍掉＂，也是不合适的.　ｂｅｌｏｎｇ　在俺的记忆里,　只是（个）Ｖｉ的用法．Like belong to, etc.

所以，belonged (noun) 应该是不妥的．这种过去分词作前置定语的用法只适合于及物动词.　如,　forbidden city = city (which　is） forbidden. 但不及物动词, 其现在分词形式(不是动名词)有时是可以的, 如, living trees, vanishing stars, etc., 但归属性则要因地制宜了.

有无例外，或诗上的省略, 听听其它意见吧．

又,　

＂一道贴近叶脉的斑斓
催熟我们最初的无知

As a glimmer was dwelling on the vein of leaves,
it hastened for us the first yield of ignorance＂

－－－　hasten the first yield of ignorance for us (or our first ...): 觉得并未达意，而且表达本身似乎也　有待商権．英译按理应该表达出:　it matured us from our initial/primary/native ignorance.

To yield ignorance, 不大说得通. 何况　hasten 还　＂加速＂了 yield．"As" 的必要性?　当然不用会是不同结构.

匆匆一拙见,　请大家指正．

老瓦

多谢见解的意见，我弄翻译是真正的旁门邪道，不是谦虚。

又生一念，神往的原乡，可否用ever-longed fatherland？

the first yield of ignorance, 原本想传递一点成熟、收获的意思，你说的it matured us from our initial/primary/native ignorance，意义更进一层，容我再长考一哈。

云天

见解爱思考。 赞！


老瓦过谦。  我个人拙见，译诗最难的还是搭框架。其余只是细节。

我问过读文学的美国朋友，belonged or longed fatherland 都很牵强。

and then spraying over my belonged fatherland
that still lies faraway past all stretches of my imagination.

可否如下：
and then spraying over the fatherland of my longing
that still lies faraway past all stretches of my imagination.



催熟我们最初的无知  
可否用 force?  
force: to cause (plants, fruits, etc.) to grow or mature at an increased rate by artificial means.
such as forced strawberries and etc.

it forced the first yield of our ignorance.

见解

多谢见解的意见，我弄翻译是真正的旁门邪道，不是谦虚。

又生一念，神往的原乡，可否用ever-longed fatherland？

the first yield of ignorance, 原本想传递一点成熟、收获的意思，你说的it matured us from our i ...
老瓦 发表于 2009-9-21 12:33 PM

老瓦不用客气. 俺是就句论句, 才真正没有达到诗的意境呢. 若是自己写句子, 也会如此考虑.

为准确起见, 查了一下, 需要补充一下俺的说明. 过去分词做前置定语, 有两种情况. 一种是表达被动的含义, 这就是前面说的情况. LONG 在这里没有'被属于"的用法. 第一种用法与从句关联.

另一种, 则是表达"完成了"的含义. 比如说, retired teacher.

你的 ever-longed 若是表达完成的意思, 语法上可以成立, 但你似乎是想表达 "我们向/神往的地方".

听听大家的高见.

第二个问题, 是有点绕. 俺的感觉是两种语言用词的习惯不同(或, 词义不同---及直接宾语和间接宾语的区别).

比如说, 中文我们说, "催熟了我们最初产生的无知". 可以理解成把无知转化为富实. 这里或者说无知是直接宾语, 或者说只有一个宾语. 但英语的HASTEN当及物动词时有个逻辑关系: 谁是直接宾语; 是HASTEN 我们 还是 HASTEN ... IGNORANCE.

云天的摘要:
"—v.t.
to cause to hasten; accelerate: to hasten someone from a room; to hasten the arrival of a happier time."

可以看出, 从意义通顺上看, 我们应该是直接宾语. 所以俺认为或者结构, 或者用词需要加以调整. 若深入一步的话(不是增加含义), mature 具有使我们摆脱无知的功用, 应该更贴切一点.

PS.  刚看到云天的解释, 有见地. Good to be discussing and learning together.

使 IGNORANCE TO MATURE, 还是可以在逻辑层次探讨?

感觉诗歌比较紧凑, 用词是个大学问; 语法结构相对比较稳定, 也是围绕词语来运用的.

老瓦

最近两周贼忙贼忙，今天终于喘一口气。试着全盘接纳大家的意见，但仍然改不了自己的stubbornness:)  粗体部分是重点修改的部分：


Tales of the Lineage



1
The light to upheave all gods
was rumbling from within the barbaric eye of sky,
it then twisted in, puffed up,
and gushed through wild fire, water and ghost of earth,
into a garden budding with the tree of memory.
As a glimmer was dwelling on the vein of leaves,
it rushed the first yield of our ignorance.

Thereafter came the eternal laboring of rocks,
and inside the shady cave,
the words kindled by swaps of eye contact
would allow deaf flowers to bloom
as well make names for time and wind.


2
From south to north, an Egyptian river muttered
like a harp mired in black soil,
and nearby bathing women, mud in their hands,
were planting golden crops onto rock paintings.

In the grand name of Son of the Sun,
Pharaoh ordered thinning ribs of his slaves
be built into mounds even more glorious than castles.
And when the body of lion escaped away from riddles,
recovering its human face muted for millenniums,
the primal soul summoned by his master corpse
was there to complete an incarnation at the tip of a wind.


3
Canals and V-shaped letters interwoven
ran across the great plain of Mesopotamia,
where grass was so nourishing, as if inside her womb,
and prophets expectant in pregnancy
just like Psalms poured into a jar.

There were clay walls so upright,
the same as the Hammurabi stele in its justice.
And from the palace hanging high above the sky,
son of the moon goddess was up with golden arrow,
for each star awaiting its fortune good or ill,
hereafter to obey to his trigger finger.


4
A lame wiseman danced out of woods,
joining the migrating elephant herd,
to camp out under the same sizzling sundown, sipping from the Ganges.
The destined lives passing by the riverbanks
had each left a layer of floating shadow,
where infinite desire went desperately entangled to the bottom.

The trifling grass and soul growing by snowy mountain and barren desert
were released from purgatory by martyred poems.
Civilized shackles would enlighten them,
same as whoever chewed down the root of karma,
was to be bestowed the rightful successor to the paradise.


5
Continents drifting, icebergs banging and cracking,
all for a crying river to depart the roof of Tibetan plateau,
and trail my ancestral mom married off to the south of the Yangtze River.
She farmed silk, waved fabric, garnered crops, burned stalks,
and in a small quarter of lush paddy field
there harbored a graveyard forever comforting her balmy soul.

Whenever came a raging chilly wind from the north,
or a monsoon rain worth another round of heartbreaking,
a blade of azure moonshine would flash across eyes of
the phoenix tattooed on her coffin lid,
which felt like a bitter chrysanthemum blossoming from
within a mug of fiery spirits,
then spraying over my fatherland forever longed
yet still faraway past all stretches of my imagination.

见解

最近两周贼忙贼忙，今天终于喘一口气。试着全盘接纳大家的意见，但仍然改不了自己的stubbornness:)  粗体部分是重点修改的部分：


Tales of the Lineage



1
The light to upheave all gods
was rumbling from wi ...
老瓦 发表于 2009-9-24 02:55 PM

也贼忙. (ZT)  

老瓦的好诗/美译. 俺写不出. :)  不见大家来评, 但与上次讨论的有点关联, 就来提提线.

看法上次已经说了, 原创最珍贵, 是区别于其他人的特征之一. 切不要为"全盘接纳大家的意见"而改. 探讨的意义在于扩展视野, 激发更好的创意. 有一点点互相借鉴, 就没有白讨论. 至于是否修改, 自己觉得通畅舒适即可, 交流的是CONCEPT, 不是诗句.

更喜欢2/5. 前者写意绘形后者如泣如诉, 感人以情. 原文中的"祖先" 是想用 "ancestral mom"吗? 或用母亲统一代表祖先吧.

个人意见, RUSH 类同 HASTEN. LONGED 接近于 BELONGED (在词性和用法上).

如果英译版本将来面向NATIVE SPEAKERS, 那么YT的approach或许可以借鉴: 请他/她们先过一下目(但过于礼貌的西人, 往往是不一定指出我们的暇疵的). 毕竟不是我们的母语, 而且很多表达其实还有个语感的问题, 语言环境使然.

请多多写. 俺若有时间也会试试献拙(不能光扔砖嘛), 到时候请使劲砸, 别手软.

老瓦

18# 见解

多谢见解！！

我马上就去买砖头，并且准备好了，时刻准备着：）） 你快上贴吧：）

见解

18# 见解

多谢见解！！

我马上就去买砖头，并且准备好了，时刻准备着：）） 你快上贴吧：）
老瓦 发表于 2009-9-30 11:19 AM

看老瓦说的, 砖还用买?   倒是俺该准备好加厚头盔还差不多. :)  千万前来指教.

云天

JJ 要贴呀，欧的砖已备好了。

老瓦用"rush"， 是个好选。简洁达意。